There was a lot to take in, of course. A few quick thoughts, on somewhat new stuff, and just random comments.
a. Lots of jumping from concept to concept - it is muddled to see how they all go together - lines, states, stages, quadrants, zones.
b. The zone concept especially was utilized to a great degree. It's a good concept as well.
c. One very good single page summary of Advaita Vedanta. What I thought was interesting about the "5 Bodies" - gross, dreaming, subtle, causal, non-dual (I hope that is correct, typing from memory - I'll go back and fix this post otherwise). Now, as the Advaitins always say, these states are ALWAYS ACCESSIBLE. Accessible, now, to you. (And Big Mind shows, this, as well.) Ken Wilber then jumps to "growing" on the vertical level of the Wilber-Combs lattice, and how you advance through meditation and training, but skips over a bit, how, if the non-dual body is accessible now, then meditation isn't necessary to access the non-dual. Which again, is part of what the older advaitins teach, and part of what neo-advaitins teach.
d. I would say the crux of new concepts, at least what is leaned on a lot, aren't so new, but presented in a clearer, more coherent manner. This again, would be the Wilber-Combs lattice, and the eight zones (modes of viewing and studying the world).
e. Shadow work is sort of thrown in there, but a great description of me-it, on the psychological level.
f. There was a lot of leaning on the concept of "stages", and that people are AT certain stages, however, I'm still not sure to what degree this holds up. I still don't find many people who are "at" only orange, or "at" only blue, etc. People seem to hold differing values, across the red/amber/blue/green spectrum, depending on an ISSUE. It would be great if the type of Zone #2 and Zone #4 studies, could show that "in general" a person is at so-and-so stage, but I need to see it to believe it. Because it could just as easily be, on the values issues that:
i. Values for different issues are at different levels - and this means that a person ISN'T at a particular level.
ii. The various studies - Graves, Leovinger, Keegan - definitely show a one-way arrow towards greater complexity, and a greater depth, in people. From the me to the us, to the universal. However, one thing glossed over, is that if this in any way meshes with the SD concept of colors, and thus the Wilber-Combs matrix.
Basically, I need to see that the various types of complexity and growth - morals, cognition, values, etc - share anything other than increasing complexity. Could it be possible that someone could be at value stage orange, yet be at moral stage 3? I think so, as you can find fundamentalists, fully committed to the mythic religious vision, who nevertheless are operationally, at the highest ethical level, in their personal behaviour.
A lot hangs on the answer to this question though, as Wilber universalizes, the "level" or "stage" a person is at, and collects the various different developmental lines, under the same rubric.
This would be the vertical side of the Wilber-Combs matrix.
No one I meet though, is "at" a stage. People to me seem all over the place. I'm not sure that stages work, in the real world. (I'm probably wrong, but thought I would point that out.)
g. I really like the small part - but very valuable - about upper levels of faith. Not only mythic faith, but the "i-thou" love relationship, in spirituality, continuing always, even in the midst of realizing non-duality. Don't skip over your heart, and the heart of the world!
h. At some point, I will bet money that this "full spectrum analysis", will make its way into various evaluation tools. Already the tools used by corporate America are very, very, good, for example, when used for hiring both for pyche traits, and for skills traits. I can only see this being an addition.
i. By the same token, however, related to points h (evaluations) and f (assigning people at stages), I don't even know what stage I am at!! Especially, as is claimed, "green" can mask a power drive of red (isn't red always about a power drive anyway?), and so be mean green, it will be interesting to see what smart, in-depth assessments can pick up about where a particular person is at.
What else have you seen from the book? Your thoughts?
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Finished Integral Spirituality Over the Weekend
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Re: Finished Integral Spirituality Over the Weekend
Great comments eBud.
"I'm not sure that stages work, in the real world." The more I delve into Wilber's work and developmental theory altogether (most recent Robert Kegan's stuff) the more I see it as a helpful theoretical tool, rather than much of a practical one. Granted, there might be a way to make it practical in the future, even in Kegan's research people would fluctuate stages (sometimes as much as 2 or 3 stages) from one year to another!!! That there was an overall trajectory is clear, but on the individual level it's really hard to see that, and there seem to be so many variables that can have that flucuate. Having a bad day? Back down to 3rd order consciousness! I'd also be interested in chatting with you, in more depth, some of the issues related to neo-advaita and more gradual schools of enlightenment. I know much of your experience has been in the radical non-dual sort, so it'll be cool to pick your brain on that. ;) Re: Re: Finished Integral Spirituality Over the Weekend
by
ebuddha
on Tue 14 Nov 2006 11:20 AM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Thanks for the feedback - this also helps to clarify one more point for me. Are people at "Stages" at all?
Or do people simply have states? What do you think about this? States of a particular person may "cluster" around two or three 'stages', but you NEVER find a person AT a particular stage. What might be happening is that, say, 30% of the time, a person may be operationally orange, 30% of the time, operationally blue, 20% of the time, operationally green, and 20% of the time (and this is advanced) operationally integral. I would also be interested in how various developmental stages - the one-way arrow - interact with operational TYPES - say, for example, someone who is a intellectual type, but whose viewpoint is mythic, as opposed to someone who is an intellectual type, whose viewpoint is intercultural. Both of these people would be "similar" - maybe even brothers, to make an example - but they would create vastly different treatises/books, ascribe to vastly different philosophies - even if they in their personal attitudes and behaviours, would be similar. Trackbacks
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