I don't know who might have read this post on Subjective Reality by Steve Pavlina.
It is an interesting mix between the non-dual perspective, and the New Age perspective - (I'm specifically thinking about Seth type of material.)
Certainly, the description of the subjective is pure advaita.
Simply read any of Ramesh Balsekar's works, and the similarity is quite apparent.
Or perhaps, this is closer to A Course In Miracles outlook.
Where the digression begins to occur, is the entry of what I would call "co-creation". Here is a section of Pavlina's Q&A:
Question: So if I were to believe in something that didn’t exist or that wasn’t possible yet, it would actually begin to manifest in the physical universe?
Answer: Yes, it would. The physical universe is a summation of thought. So first of all, in order to change this universe, you must adopt the belief that creation by thought is possible. You must not only believe it. You must know it.
If you try to create by thought, yet deep down you still believe it’s impossible or highly improbable, then it will not manifest for you. The physical universe, including time and space, can only manifest in a manner that is congruent with your beliefs.
So here now an INDIVIDUAL belief will begin to have an affect on the OUTER subjective world experienced. Beliefs are the mediating entity between the true subjective self and the normal objective self.
This is as opposed to the advaita view - that the experienced outer world - the normal world of form - is actually the subjective's dream - Brahma's dream - and not "your" dream. "Not MY will, but THINE." And implicit in this, is the surrender to God, the subjective, WHAT IS, rather than an attempt at manipulation through "belief changing".
But again, it isn't JUST that simple as that because - guess what? Each individual is blessed with a "creative self", and an ability to affect the world, at least on a social level.
So Pavlina's version of Subjective Reality for the "world" and how to affect that world, is a bit different from - say, the "two truths" doctrine.
Or, the more sophisticated version of the Two Truths doctrine promoted by Ken Wilber, that is Integral Theory.
I could say more on this, but I would like others feedback as well. Any thoughts? Post and trackback on your blogs and I'll link and discuss, or comment here, if you feel so inclined.
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Steve Pavlina, Subjective Reality, Non-duality, Integral
Comments
Re: Steve Pavlina, Subjective Reality, Non-duality, Integral
I loved Pavlina's piece.
IMO, referring to Wilber's perspective as "the more sophisticated" strikes me as a bit overstated. It's a different perspective. It's one that is held by the Western Hermetic traditions, including Paganism and Wicca, which hold that changes on the Astral (think of the Astral as the foyer of the Subtle) can manifest in physical reality. It's not too far removed from the work done by George Leonard and Michael Murphy either, as it nicely explains the notion of siddhis in Eastern spiritual traditions, and miracles in Western traditions. Also, keep in mind that Wilber has repeatedly said that meditation "changes the structure of the Kosmos". (See the latest WIE. Oh, wait, nevermind...;-) How could that be possible, if some verson of Pavlina's theory weren't true? Re: Re: Steve Pavlina, Subjective Reality, Non-duality, Integral
by
ebuddha
on Fri 19 May 2006 04:08 PM PDT | Profile | Permanent Link
It definitely is about what is the "change agent". For Pavlina -in this piece - it is beliefs. It could be argued that the "7 levels" of existence as elucidated by the Great Traditions, are simply different vibrational qualities of thought - but there are differences that make a difference.
What is assumed "as background" is the social world in which we are engaged. If you look up "chicken man", or other men raised in the wild, the ability to entertain "beliefs" doesn't exist in the same way. And so encasing beliefs by starting with a grounded psychological developmental model, seems a better bet to me. Re: Steve Pavlina, Subjective Reality, Non-duality, Integral
Also, I think you're confusing things with the use of the word "individual". In Pavlina's usage, the only true "individual" is not an individual at all - It is indivisible, nonseparable. The Will of reality is not simply your individual, egoic will, but the Will of 6 billion plus.
Re: Re: Steve Pavlina, Subjective Reality, Non-duality, Integral
by
ebuddha
on Fri 19 May 2006 04:15 PM PDT | Profile | Permanent Link
It is possible - "you" may always be the universal. But it is the type of belief system that is un-falsifiable, and always has aready-to-hand rationalization.
Also, this errs on the simplistic side (only in my view) - try wishing yourself happy if you are suicidal. Re: Re: Re: Steve Pavlina, Subjective Reality, Non-duality, Integral
I see what you're saying, but I think it's easy to avooid those dangers by, as you said, having a strong development model.
It's fine to model things based on consensus reality. It's another thing to let consensus limit you. Re: Steve Pavlina, Subjective Reality, Non-duality, Integral
I'm glad someone is commenting on this. I think you nailed it. I read his piece - quickly - because I wanted to puke during most of it. I generally enjoy his blog in a new-age fluffy kind of way. There's definitely a place for that meme of writing. But the whole Q&A format sets him up as guru. Ugh. And he really needs some integral tools like the four quadrants, absolute/relative truth, stages, etc.
I just hope once and for all that people stop calling Steve Pavlina "integral." Re: Re: Steve Pavlina, Subjective Reality, Non-duality, Integral
by
ebuddha
on Fri 19 May 2006 04:11 PM PDT | Profile | Permanent Link
yes, I would agree. What's interesting about him, is that his own personal self-discipline, is a bit at odds with the normal New-Agey type. His accomplished self-discipline would fit into any hard-nosed business book - and yet he has this new-agey side.
Interesting. Re: Steve Pavlina, Subjective Reality, Non-duality, Integral
Well, I gave it a shot. Blogger doesn't do the trackback thing. Which sucks.
http://ideologicalputty.blogspot.com/2006/05/pavlina-post-ebuddha-subjective.html Re: Steve Pavlina, Subjective Reality, Non-duality, Integral
I posted some parallel comments here: http://deepsurface.net/2006/05/21/pavlina-and-subjective-reality/
I'm with Mel, ebuddha, you should allow links in your comments. How can people exercise 2nd tier flow with so many 1st tier controls? (mandatory log-in, no linking, etc...) Re: Re: Steve Pavlina, Subjective Reality, Non-duality, Integral
by
ebuddha
on Sun 21 May 2006 08:51 PM PDT | Profile | Permanent Link
Okay okay!
I'll get off my lazy butt and improve this section - both u guys are absolutely correct here... Re: Steve Pavlina, Subjective Reality, Non-duality, Integral
by
marklee
on Wed 12 Aug 2009 02:26 AM PDT | Permanent Link
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